Jimmy Greaves has a weekly column in the Sunday People where he sets forth his views on various football issues. Yesterday his chosen subject was the role and value of captaincy, against the backdrop of the current controversy surrounding John Terry.
Under the title ‘Captain is Moore than an armband’ Greaves plays down the role of the football captain, generally, and was reported as having the following to say about Bobby Moore:
‘Every England captain since Bobby Moore has been compared to the great 1966 World Cup winning captain, and that has not always been helpful.
Bobby was a magnificent defender, a lovely man and a very close friend of mine. But he is only regarded in such almost sainted esteem because he happened to be captain on that day in 1966. And that England team could just as easily have been skippered by Jack Charlton, Bobby Charlton or George Cohen, to name but a few. Had Jimmy Armfield not been injured in the build up to the World Cup, and had George Cohen not been such an outstanding replacement at right-back, then Jim would have been skipper.’
Bobby Moore is held in such high esteem because he was the greatest defender in the world and a totally irreplacable captain for both club and country. Bobby led the team by personal example and was Sir Alf’s man on the pitch. He did not just ‘happen’ to be skipper, he was the choice of the England Manager. Sir Bobby Charlton has previously said that England would not have won the 1966 Final without Bobby Moore and he is totally right. If I remember correctly, when he made that comment, Charlton grew emotional talking about Bobby. Such emotion, respect and loyalty from a team mate is not engendered by just any old captain, but by a very special player, leader and man.
If you want to see a real captain in action, observe footage of how Bobby pushed England forward, after we went 0-1 down in the 1966 Final, to win and take the quick free kick that led to Sir Geoff Hurst’s headed equaliser. Watch the closing stages of the match and see the intense pressure that the Germans exerted on our rearguard in an attempt to save the game at 3-2. While others, by their own admission, screamed at him to put the ball into row Z, Bobby calmly collected the ball, run it out of defence and sent a killer 40 yard pass forward that instantly turns desperate defence into a decisive offensive action, result: Hurst scores to make it 4-2 and the Cup is ours.
No disrespect to the England players quoted, but I think Jimmy Greaves seriously under-estimates the task of filling Moore’s shoes as England Captain. Bobby graced the England Captaincy with his greatness as a footballer, his authority on the pitch and his grace and dignity off of it. In many ways Bobby’s tenure transformed the status of England Captain and gave the position much of the gravitas that it enjoys today. When a new England Captain is installed he is well aware of the fact that he has to live up to the achievements and high standards set by the great Bobby Moore both on and off the pitch.
That is why I totally agree with Capello’s decision. To have not removed the captaincy would have undermined the authority and standing of the position. As it is, Capello has strengthened it and preserved the legacy of Bobby Moore by showing that high standards are expected of those who hold the Captaincy of the Three Lions. Rio kindly take note for future reference!
As for Jimmy Greaves, he is rightly regarded as one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. But I think he is wrong in his comments on the importance of Bobby Moore’s captaincy of the England team.
SJ. Chandos.
Pele said 'Moore' was the best defender/ player in the world – so he gets my vote…:-)
No one can deny Moore had a n aura about him (maybe it was the luck of the irish beaming down on him
Greavsie was an alcoholic and like all superstars they have some form of vice but so long as on the pitch they never let you down who cares,West Ham United World Cup winners gutting for Arsenal,Chelsea Spuds and all jealous people who strive to make the top but find out we are made out of what they will never get close to' A National Institution' that will be challenged but never replaced at The Very Top!
Sorry SJ, I cannot agree with your choice of topic here as it invites condemnation and abuse of one of this country's greatest ever footballers, Jimmy Greaves.
I think Jimmy has earned the right to his views without people promoting a forum that is likely to pour scorn on the fella.
Jimmy's belief that Mooro's World Cup performance did not hinge on him being captain is a view held by many in the game. Mooro's play was sublime, being captain didn;t make him a better player…he was pure class anyway.
You will say you are only inviting comment, but I believe we have to be selective on topics and attitude when it comes to treating legends of the game who have earned their stripes and the right to their views.
When you take issue with someone of Greavsie's stature on a site such us this, I believe you have a duty to ensure we show the sort of class and style displayed by King Bobby himself.
Nicely put, Lofty. Greavsie was a superb striker, and very good friend of Moore, and I will always have a special regard for him. Not only do I find him funny, but the first ever Claret & Blue goal that I saw scored in the flesh was by Greavsie against Tottenham in 1970
On the captaincy, I have to say that I find Capello's decision a little puzzling. I can understand him wanting him to replace Terry, particularly in this day of "media morality", but the appointment of Ferdinand is most odd. Currently Rio is serving a four match ban for violent conduct, and has a chequered disciplinary record: a ban for failing to turn up for a routine doping test springs to mind. I can't help feeling that it would be better to have a captain that made love not war!!
Rome…I liked the way Capello dealt with the Terry situation swiftly, decisively and without fuss. He said enough is enough, let's move on.
As for Rio, I have no problem with his 4 match ban. It was on the field of play and that's part of the game. The drugs problem was 7 years ago and he has grown as a man and a player since then.
It could be the making of him…and we can always claim another World Cup winning captain should the miracle happen.
Personally, I think Capello should have judged a player's off the field activity with the same measure as a player's on the field activity. But then I am not Capello…
Greavsie was one of the best strikers England has ever had, maybe the best. A good chap too but we all know he was pretty gutted at being made to move to West Ham. He never wanted to come.
Greaves
Hurst
Shearer
Lineker
SJ…this is the sort of moronic abuse I was talking about. This site has a responsibility to censor and stop the rantings of fools. A top-loaded topic like this is an accident waiting to happen. I suggest you withdraw it now.
Thanks SJ…Iain…or whoever
The idea of a blog is for one person to state an opinion and then for others to agree/disagree as they see fit. Blog posts are intended to be thought provoking, and in order to fulfil that then posts have to sometimes be "top-loaded" in order to elicit a reasoned response.
I read the deleted reply and my take on it was that it was puerile sarcasm not moronic abuse, but doesn't detract from the fact that it was pointless.
However to reiterate – blogs need topics like this to generate debate.
What sets this blog apart is that it is about the only one that doesn't tolerate swearing – most of them positively encourage it.
Bubbleblower…One man's sarcasm is another man's abuse.
That said, I do believe there has to be consideration given to the topics put up for debate.
It serves no purpose to light certain blue touch-papers then stand back and watch the fireworks. I believe Iain and SJ navigate that potential pitfall well, but there are some areas guaranteed to attract abuse and poor comment.
Not everything is up for debate, in my opinion. This being one of them, but that said I'm sure Jimmy Greaves is robust enough to defend himself.
I guess our slight disagreement has ticked the box for general debate, so I'll leave it there and wish you well.
I will tell you all why Zola has not got a clue,Matthew Etherington is his name a winger creator of a third of Stoke,s goals and playing out of his skin!He still has a massive gambling debt but is coping but how good a player has he become under the personal man management of Tony Pulis he tore Blackburn and many other sides to shreds but was not good enough for Zola no he was too good and fact is you never gave him a chance,no man or fan would have let someone with his match winning capabilities go but somehow people signed a petition on here to ask if you could stay,question is why?Remember Lee Bowyer ,Zola the judge again thought he was a has been why like Etherington was not European enough no buy kovac ,savio ,Da Costa and people stand up for you why cos you have not got a clue!
If your comment was only saying Jimmy Greaves was not worth losing sleep over, then why was it removed. Iain only does that when the comments contain swearing, are abusive, crude, rude or racist.
Me thinks you massage the facts Tintack
So you describe him as a 108 year, street drinking alcoholic who needs food from Meals on Wheels and don't think that is offensive.
Get a life pal and grow up.
SJ I'm surprised you didn't pick up on last weeks article in The Independent which maligned Bobby Moore in a more underhand way, whilst saying, about about Stanley Matthews "an early example of the tradition of ignominious behaviour by touring England players, ranging from the arrest in Colombia of World Cup-winning captain Bobby Moore in 1970, to the gaggle of drunken stars who rode the luggage carousel at Belgrade airport four years later."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/ne…
Totally agree with you on this and cant understand Jimmy's opinion. Is there a hint of a ghost writer or familiarity breeding etc… I watched Bobby's career throughout and if there is one thing I think of as beyond compare it was his "captaincy". The respect shown to him by Pele, Bobby & Jack plus Beckenbaur, another great captain, would seem to back up this assertion. Thanks to Rudyard for " if you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs……. seems to some it up for me.
I don't remember Bobby Moore… far too young. Maybe it was a different era with regard to the 'freedom' of the press and their 'right' to dig for scraps of dirt in your life if you're 'in the public eye'. But I have seen the way Moore conducted himself on the pitch and in interviews, etc. With grace, humility and respect.
I can't say the same for myself when I played a bit of Sunday Morning. So I'm a hypocrite sneering at Terry and Ferdinand and lauding Moore. Well… yes but that's not the point. When I see how Moore conducted himself I do sometimes feel slightly ashamed and see a great example of how I could have conducted myself. That's what makes a real national team captain.
Like I said, I don't remember the 60s. It may be that Moore was the product of a more respectful society and that Charlton, Cohen, Armfield etc. would have followed a similar example. And yes Bobby Charlton was also a great player. So Greaves may be right in some respects.
The other point is who in today's team could have a similar effect on fans? Probably no-one but then is that more about the nature of the game today?
I think Greaves has a point in trying to take the pressure off players who can't possibly stand up to the image we have of Moore. But they could aspire to that image a little bit more than they appear to do.
I like Jimmy Greaves, he was the finest exponent of scoring goals that I have ever witnessed or are likely to again.
I also was one of the fortunate people on this planet who witnessed the career of Bobby Moore. Believe me there has never been a man before or since who took on the mantle of being "The Captain" with greater authority or respect than Bobby Moore.
To witness Bobby shouting and pointing at his team mates into position, reading the game and changing formations as the game progressed was a pure joy. Remember this was before the recent trend of managers barking orders from the touchline, this was when the Captain was the manager on the pitch. Bobby did this with equal brilliance for West Ham and England, yes we probably would have won the World Cup in '66 with a different Captain but nobody would have been a better man to have lifted that trophy.
Poor old Jim unfortunately has become just that, "poor old Jim" still regaling the same old stories as a so so after dinner speaker or in his new role of stand up comic which unfortunately these comments of his fall into. No Jim you are wrong on this one, you are still I am afraid bitter about the World Cup Final, but in reality how could Alf of dropped an "on fire" Geoff Hurst, you were a great player but I'm afraid Bobby was different class as both a player and a man and that is why he played and was the deserving Captain on that July afternoon in 1966.
Buy your own admission Jim, your time at West Ham cannot be remembered due to the drunken haze you were in, perhaps you should look at some DVD's of the great man to jog the old memory banks.
Roshi, having also watched the Hammers from about 1952 and seen Bobby Moore progress to become England Captain, from his beginnings in the W Ham Youth Team via the Reserves and the Hammers First XI, I can confirm that he was destined for the great honours he eventually won from the very beginning. This particularly was the case after the untimely death of Duncan Edwards in the Munich air crash. Edwards was the only man that might have stood in the way of Bobby's progress, but sadly, fate did not allow us to find out what the ultimate outcome of that competition might have been.
Regarding Jimmy Greaves opinion of Bobby as the Captain, he and his supporters were very upset at his omission from the Final team when Geoff Hurst was preferred. I was very privileged to have been given a special seat for the match, sitting just behind the Royal Box and immediately in front of the England reserves and players wives. As soon as the match started there were some amongst them, including a man sitting immediately in front of me, who gave Geoff vociferous stick as soon as he made a mistake. This was on the basis that it was stupid to have chosen him over and above Greavsy, who everybody loved. You can imagine my delight at the end of the match to be able to tap this man on the shoulder and ask him what he now thought about that "stupid" selection
Jimmy Greaves in his 2005 book "The Heart of the Game" said this of his relationship with Bobby Moore: "Bobby and I were great mates–our friendship dated back to his early days with the England team in 1962 and continued unabated until his untimely death in 1993."
On Moore's captaincy Greaves wrote: "As a captain Bobby operated more by example than by inspiration or by shouting words of encouragement. He was always cool, calm and collected, which instilled in us fellow England players a feeling that all was well and that there was no way the opposition were ever going to rattle him. It was that superior level of calm that rubbed off to England's advantage when we won the World Cup."
All in all, pretty complimentary in my opinion.
RomeHammer, anyone who stood near the pitch when Bobby was captain would tell you there were constant words of encouragement, as well as his cool, calm and collected manner.
The man was unique.
Undoubtedly, Roshi, but it would be fair to say that Mooro was not a bawler. Although, slightly younger than yourself, I do remember Bobby Moore as captain of England and West Ham, and I was also lucky enough to witness Bobby Moore play.
I agree not a bawler by any stretch of the imagination, but when he got those bandy legs running with his arms out wide everyone knew what they had to do. The pointing was his greatest asset, he was like a cricket captain getting "his" team into position.
Yep, thanks for bringing back that enduring image of the great man; the cricket analogy is a fine summarisation. I remember reading, I can't recall where, that it was Jackie Charlton who did most the bellowling in the 1966 England team. Bobby had his presence, which was his way of communicating.
I agree with the Edwards point, I wish I had seen him play, but that is how fate plays its awful hand sometimes.
Despite my obvious pleasure at Hurst's inclusion as a young Hammer, as the years have gone on I really think he made that team on merit.
I loved the story, even as an 11 year old I can remember every detail of that great day. Especially my Dad and uncles returning from the match and saying they could have taken me as there was plenty of room around them!
Here is a great example of Bobby Moore's sense of humour from Geoff Hurst's "My Autobiography". "I remember, on more than one occasion, Bobby as England captain, walking along the line of players before the kick-off at Wembley introducing FA dignitaries and guests to the team. 'And this is Roger Hunt,' he'd say as they came up to Jimmy Greaves. He'd wink as you shook hands with the guest and he always kept a straight face.
I remember meeting Bobby when I was around 7 years old. I was playing in a football skills weekend. Paul Allen and Paul brush(well you can't win em all
were also there.
Funnily enough, I was more excited about meeting Paul Allen at the time, as It wasn't so long after our FA Cup win and the memory was still fresh.
Lovely to meet Bobby though and got his signature-unfortunately the picture of him had him in a fulham kit
Jimmy has earned his right for his views and who is to say he is wrong.
Remember that Jimmy and Bobby were best friends, so he knew Bobby much better than any of us. If you ever get the chance to hear the story of when Jimmy broke into an British Embassy to sit down with Bobby after he was accused of stealing that necklace (England Captain, alledgedly steals necklace! Scandal
) it’s well worth a listen. Very funny and shouts volumes of the relationship both of them had.
All that being said, Bobby was easily the best England captain we ever had.
—————green——————-
tomkins——-upson
spector———————–deprella
————–berahmi———————
—-faubert–parker(c)—stanislas
—-cole——————mido
wednesday night. take the captaincy off upson tell him your going after the season so your playing for your world cup spot give it to parker. ive seen post on here getting on behrami's back abiout him going forward so why not let him do what he does best have him tackling hard and spreading the ball around let him get in barry fergusons face, scott parker in lee bowyers . lets give faubert a chance out wide. lets make upton park wednesday night hell for both the brum players and the fans as really do fear for zola thursday if we come off even with a draw ! dont want it to happen but golivan apparently work with facts and i know zola's had a lot to put up with not only selling our best centre back to villa and belermy going shake man sur city but his record is the same as roeders at the minute. lets hope thursday we have three points , no injuries and a performance thats worthy of a hard relegation fight .
Agreed,parkers our captain.
Sounds like another out of context misquote to me SJ. I doubt Jimmy Greaves would seek to put Bobby Moore down in any way.
A month's loan to the Baggies for Frank Nouble I notice. I reckon that'll do him some good.
AllI know is I was chuffed when I heard the news about the Chelsea skippers sacking. For someone who clearly thought he was above being told how to behave, it must have hurt more than his knackers probably do anyway! In my opinion he should never have been given the captaincy, as he has never conducted himself as you may expect of such an esteemed position, following in the footsteps of legends like Moore. Peeing on the bar at your Christmas bash allegedly isn't anything to boast about either. I'm just glad Fat Frank didn't get considered as that was a fear of mine following this. I certainly hope he's cooked his goose now…or what was her name JT ???? Good riddance!
Completely off message, anyother regulars do Iain Dale's fantasy mini league on the premier league site?
From a low base, I am now up in the dizzy heights of the 400s!
I seem to be in the 400's too, I like to think it is green, cole and zamora that got me there, but I think it is probably lampard and gerrard
ok now I've confessed
I am 67th in the Dail mail League.
Haven't looked at my team since the second week HM. I've had an absolute mare. I'm at position 898. Must try harder.
I'm 55th, it's a shame I only have Jack Collison in my starting XI
I'm at 248 and confess my squad has included lampard and defoe. If there a priest here who will forgive my sins? I do have etherington out wide so that must count for something?
I'm 55th, it's a shame I only have Jack Collison in my starting XI
Zola annual salary 1.9 million pounds a year Steve Clarke 1.2 million now if this what we pay for shite management,what does it cost for the best!These 2 are taking the proverbial!And Headmaster last time I looked In The mail and Foxsports leagueI was in the top 100 on both counts fingers crossed I will be in Zola,s Job Thursday morning cos that makes me Qualified but I have got no coaching badges only Dvd,s of the glory days of the past.LOLBy the way zola is second favourite to be sacked after wednesday could all change!
Mike dean! can you believe it.
sorry i've missed something. Is he the ref for wednesday's game? Please tell me he isn't as he is my least favourite referee. Always does us an injustice.
Red card Dean at the ready,already red carded one brummie this season!
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Its mike Dean and this games going to be passionate,someones going to go.
Nice to see some positivity from our illustrious new leaders http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/sport/sul… – NOT!
Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt – The dark side are these my young padawan (as well as the seeds sewn by a certain well known Corporate IT firm).
Couldn't agree more mate. This has to be the worst article I have read from any chairman of a football club. To be undermining the manager like this and saying that all the players are overpaid is not conducive to positivity is it?
If he thinks Scott Parker is overpaid on 60K? what about Wayne Bridge on £120K a week. Who is more important to their respective teams?
This is a very disruptive and negative article and I don't see what good Sullivan and Gold think could have come from it
I like many others on here would have preferred to have had Tony Fernandes in charge of the club. Sullivan and Gold took over and to give them credit, they went about their business well. I always said I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
They were both up front and honest about the finances and spoke well about the club and threw in some nostalgia into the mix. It felt good to finally not be run by a faceless entity.
When taking over they didn't pull their punches but were keen to stress that we were in sound footing now, it would take a while but in 5 years the debt would be gone and we could aim for Champions league football in 7 years. They affirmed categorically that their was no more risk of the club going into administration.
After all the horror stories, after all the dreaded front and back page exposes of the club, finally we could have closure.We could look forward to better times.
So, imagine how I, along with all the other West Ham fans feel, waking up to headlines splashed across the Sun and the guardian today. According to Sullivan in an interview, it would be "Armageddon" if the club got relegated.
Not only that, but "Fellow strugglers Portsmouth could be wound up in the High Court tomorrow in an on-going battle with the taxman as the team nosedives towards relegation.
"Fellow strugglers" Here we are again, being compared with Portsmouth.
Sullivan then goes on to tell the world that he is sacking tonnes of people and that he wants everyone, including the players, manager and assistant to take a 25% pay cut.
The message is, we will need to cut the wages and slash the numbers because even if we don't go down, we might STILL be in a lot of trouble.
I'm sorry, but what's happened to the optimism? What has happened to the rhetoric about us being in financial difficulties but we are now safe, and we will sort it out.
Gold and Sullivan arrived announcing they are our saviours, that we are safe from administration – but a few weeks later, according to Sullivan, we might not be safe at all, even if we DO stay up!
As for the pay cuts. Are you telling me that Scott Parker who is on a nice wage of £60K a week, will take a pay cut after almost single-handedly dragging us up from the depths in games. Why should he? This is what he was offered and it is within his rights to say NO. If he does say no, he will be more than aware that a club like Man City, will not only offer him the same wage, but offer him double, and the possibility of Champions League football.
Cue the likes of Parker, Green, Cole, Behrami, Collison, all leaving in the summer out of protest. Sullivan is now telling the world about the deal which took Behrami to the club and that it cost West Ham £1.5Million in wages to the agent. Why is he telling us that? Surely Behrami's agent and Behrami himself are going to be none to pleased about that!
Oh, and what about Zola and Clarke. Men who have been working in extremely difficult and unprecedented pressures since taking over Management. What about them. Well, read this quote from Sullivan-
Sullivan said: "Of all the managers I've dealt with he is the nicest. The question is 'Is he too nice?' Ossie Ardiles was the nicest guy you could meet but look what he did to Tottenham.
I find this quote absolutely scandalous. To be questioning the manager in the press. What must Zola be thinking? What must the players be thinking? If I was Zola, why would I want to take a pay cut then have to put up with the Chairmen mouthing off about you to the gutter press?
If I was Zola I would be absolutely apoplectic that I am being questioned by the Chairman in the press. It is one thing to have a word with you in private but this!
I fear that this interview has only harmed our relegation chances and you can be sure that it has served to harm the squads' morale.
Suddenly the honeymoon period is over and the cold reality is here. I'm really shocked by this.
Andy agree with everything you've said ,it really is time for them to stop talking to the media about the finacial wose of the club.It really is going to start to undermine the team and the manager regarding the future.Right now we need unity,and not them running around telling anyone who will listen that were up shit street.
I just can't see what good they think can come from this? It's all gloom and doom.
I know we've got a massive game on weds and need to fully focus on that,i really think they've gone to far.Going to the game i think Birmingham will be a real tough nut to crack , we must score first to give us the confidence to go on win it.So G&S shut up until then please!
completely agree Andy. What is Elmer doing now?! why can't he just shut up for a day and let Zola get on with his job and stop hunting publicity day in day out?
We've gone from hearing nothing from the chairmen to hearing anything and everything but it's all doom and gloom and nothing positive to rally the team which is completely the wrong way of going about it.
Who in the right mind is going to invest if he keeps putting a downer on everything?
His sidekick has been winding up Birmingham now by saying were bigger then them etc – oh great just what we need, more ammunition for big eck to get his team motivated as if they won't be enough already!
Seriously Sullivan give it a rest and let Zola and the players dig us out of this mess and here's a novel idea for you… sort out the rest **BEHIND THE SCENES** away from the public eye and the players to keep them focused on the job in hand which is finishing 4th from bottom realistically stuff the top half of the league!
end of rant!…. and that makes my mind up I'm going to the pub for lunch today
enjoy your lunch mate. Ploughmans and a beer?
Spot on about the birmingham quote. I was concerned about that too – a lot to be miffed about in this article isnt there!
I'm wondering weather they actually want new investment they say they want new money to come but at same time put people off with the gloom and doom stories.I reckon they want the club to themselve's they can buy the rest of the club at an all ready set price,by putting these stories out they scare any potential investors away.
Pizza express and a peroni i think ha ha!…….. I've changed
Oh and I tell you one thing. This has only served to cause unrest in the squad and unrest in the management.
Looking at the blogs in the sun below the story, it has also made every Spurs fan's day. They never miss a chance to gloat at our expense.
One more thing. We have a huge game against Birmingham this Wednesday. We must win it.
So our owners are telling the World that we are a bigger club than Birmingham, and that the game on Wednesday is a "must win game" and Gold wants us to "whack em"
If I was the McLeish I know what I would be doing before the game. Stick this article up in the changing rooms for all the Birmingham players to look at.
What better motivation than that
I can see anther constructive dismissal case coming our way!
what do you mean mate?
Well, lets put it this way. If you were financially secure as no doubt Zola is and your new boss started to question your pay and abilities with the rest of your work colleagues through the staff magazine would you feel that you were being "eased" out of your job hoping you would make the decision to leave rather than being told "your fired"…. as per Curbs
It only goes to show where there’s will there’s a way. Keep on trying. – My one regret in life is that I am not someone else. – Woody Allen Born 1935