It would appear that Rubert Huth may receive a three match ban for striking Matt Upson during Saturday’s game against Stoke City. All well and good, but the fact is that Stoke City finished the match with eleven men and the Hammers were denied a probable penalty! That must have influenced the final result?
What were the officials doing? A referee, two assistants and a fourth official and they all missed it! The FA must surely ask the officials why they did not see the offence?
This type of incident also raises legal and ethical issues about whether violence perpetrated on the pitch should be treated differently from that in everyday life?
We all recall Duncan Ferguson being prosecuted for an incident on the pitch during his time with Glasgow Rangers. Is the legal response the right one or is it better that these issues should be dealt with via the FA’s disciplinary mechanisms? Alternatively, should it be considered assault, and a criminal act, regardless where it occurs? In this respect should footballers be treated differently from the fans on the terrace or the average person in the street? By doing so are we effectively treating footballers as if they are above the law?
An interesting ethical question for you to debate!
SJ Chandos.
Luck does not seem blessed for The Hammers but can it get any worse?Hope not!
Veronica Moser rules
3 month batch, not enough! He should be fined aswell! Would have been a penalty as well! Which could have completely changed the game and we might have actually got the win!
Huth was born an ignorant thug! Even at Chelsea he was just as bad! I saw a pic of Matty's face and it's a mess!
As far as a criminal offense, if I went to work at one of my ambulance stations and punched my crew-mate in the face, then admitted it, the police would be called and I'd be probably be charged!
At the very least I'd lose my job! Why should football be any different? It is a job for the players, they get payed to perform!
And please don't say that there is a lot of hussle and bussle in the game and it's expected! What that pig did was NOT expected and NOT acceptable as are a lot of the other incidents on the pitch…….Ricardo Fuller, Kieran Dyer, Lee Bowyer etc…
Matt
As much as I would have liked it to be it could not have been given as a penalty as the ball was deads when the incident happened
The ball was dead! I agree but have seen them given! Just trying to say that there was NO excuse for what he did
Violence in any workplace is dealt with internally, with any legal proceedings being down to the severity of the assault and whether the victim wishes to take it further. In this case I'm pretty certain Upson won't be calling the police for what was only a little slap. What's more worrying to me is the manner in which Upson dropped to the ground like he had been hit by one of the Klitchko brothers.
The fact still remains that we need to score more goals in open play rather than whinge about things that can't be changed such as penalties that weren't given. I also find it funny reading comments criticising Huth which are written by people that loved players like Dicks and Repka. I guess I never did get the hang of doing the hypocrisy bit when it comes to being a fan, oh well.
Sorry mate but you're wrong! I work for an ambulance company and ANY assult on staff by the public OR by other staff is reported to the police!
In my opinion this is the best policy as our staff know it won't be tolerated.
I agree with Sindey our anger is tempered by the fact we lost; it wasn't as if Huth, apropos of nothing, gave Upson a Popeye belt. It came about through the natural hurly burly of defending a penalty box- it was wrong and he'll get his just deserts with a three match ban but let's be honest we've empoyed our fair share of thuggish players. OK, you could argue had we got a penalty that was due to us; we could have won. Then again we may have missed the penalty or a sense of grievance may have spurred Stoke on to score a bagfull .. roll with it. We lost because we haven't created and taken enough scoring chances; pure and simple and until we do we will remain in trouble.
Well said, Kevin.
Perhaps we should adopt the Sheff U approach and just sue the match officials for costing us 1 or 3 points which, the way our season is panning out, may be the difference between Premiership and Coca-Cola football next year.
BTW am I the only one who is SERIOUSLY worried about the threat of relegation this season?
If we are still bottom 3 come January and the takeover bids have faded away, what's the betting that vultures like Redknapp and Benitez won't descend and take Upson, Collison and Green away for piddling fees in order to keep the banks at bay?
Those dame icebergs have literally destroyed our club. We are in serious trouble on and off the pitch and I now dread my morning check of the Newsnow West Ham page
No you are not the only one worried mate!
There are a few on here that are worried and there are a few that are worried but won't admit it! Either because they are scared of the backlash by other members or they just don't want to admit it!
I'm becoming more worried as the weeks go by mate!
Matt m8, speak for yourself only – not other people. Maybe people who are not panicking like u are basing it on something other than over-reaction and a gloomy outlook. You have a tendency of dismissing anyone who does not think the sky is falling down and atributing motives behind their opinions. You would the first to scream if people did that to you.
A friendly comment. Think about it.
I don't dismiss ANYONE! I have said over and over and over that you are all entitled to your view but just because I don't agree with it, it doesn't make me wrong!
"first to scream"???? What you on about, people dismiss my views on Zola and relegation day in, day out! It doesn't make them wrong!
It is people like you that get all huffy when someone doesn't agree with your remarks that I am talking about! Obviously you are going to say that that isn't you. well just look at your comments, you are not happy unless everyone is agreeing with you!
Me? I have said all along that if someone doesn't agree with what I have said, then not a problem, it doesn't make any of us wrong!
Not a very friendly reply was it Matt! Nor particularly logical either come to that. Some people just hang themselves don't they – you just have to give them enough rope.
By the way you take some beating in the huffy stakes! Just think about it. You reckon elsewhere that anyone who agrees with the blog posts is a 'brown nosey!' Could it not be that they just agree with what is being said? I find your point of view very disrespectful to fellow posters actually.
Then you say that more people agree with your gloomy point of view, but are scared to say it! I repeat – who are you to second guess why people adopt certain views? That is also a disrespectful and juvenile point of view. You really do need to grow up.
I have been following this site for over a year (only recently started posting) and I think that it is those withsuch juvenile mentalities and disrespectful atitudes that have have dragged this site down recently.
Your not the only one fella,feel sorry for zola,lost so many player's,but there's no excuse for 1 upfront and crap buys.
2 thoughts keep me from slashing my wrisits;
1. We won on the opening day and no team has been relegated from the Prem that won on the opening day.
2. We are still better than Hull, Pompey and Brum – 17th place is all i'm wishing for this year.
Funny you should mention Sheffield United there, they being the employers of Chris Morgan, the violent thug who fractured Barnsley player Ian Hume's skull and who received the draconian punishment of zero games' suspension.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/26/ch...
(PS, it's not libellous if it's true)
Funny you should mention Sheffield United there, they being the employers of Chris Morgan, the violent thug who fractured Barnsley player Ian Hume's skull and who received the draconian punishment of zero games' suspension.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/26/ch...
(PS, it's not libellous if it's true)
A 3 match ban is the norm regardless of a serious tackle, physical assault or plain abuse on the field of play. As Matt says if this is outside the football forum
one would be charged potential community service and possibility of loss of job. With tackles & verbal abuse this can be resolved by 3 match ban. However I feel that physical assault should be treated separately and a 1month ban would be sufficient plus community service served according to the offence.
OTT you say however it might make footballers think twice before doing it again.
Sidney,
Didn't matty take a dive? l've watch that a few times and no way was that a penalty, at least Upson's was a genuine penalty, and he should have made more of it! Look at Liverpool a few weeks ago,when they tried to dis-allow our penalty, by saying that Diamanti kicked the ball with two feet, l think that we should be like every other team and try and get every incident in our favour, all the top teams seam to be dab hands at it, & it gives them a winning edge!! and that's what we need at the moment.
Frankly I am not bothered if Etherington took a dive or not. Once the ref has given or not given a decision that's it finished wih. no amount of complaining will change the decision so why waste energy complaining days after the event. It's part of any competitive sport that officials have to make contentious decisions. It happens to every team. So if you can laugh when it's in your teams favour then you can't really cry when it isn't. It's just sour grapes on the part of football fans, such is their general hypocrisy on these matters. Likewise saying Upson should have made even more of a meal of it and that the team should play act like other teams do is all well and good, just as long as you then don't complain whenever it happens against us or when one of our players is subsequently sent off for over elaborating a fall in the box. More often than not though teams lose because they didn't score more goals than the other team, not beacause the ref missed a light slap or someone dived.
A 3 match ban is neither here nor there. People like Huth should be banned for months and as said by others prosecuted for assault. This was not a mis-timed challenge which broke someone's leg, when the offending player could rightly claim there was no intent to injure. This was blatant assault and it will remain part of the game so long as the punishment does not fit the crime..
Maybe we should put Stoke on notice now that if we go down we will ask Lord Griffiths to rule on whether Stoke are liable for playing a guy who should not have been on the pitch. Talk about irony.
As gutted as i was that the inept officials missed the incident it would not have been a penalty as the ball was not in play,
red card yes & we may have won! but i'm begining to doubt G&C tactics & along with everyone around me was screaming for someone to support Cole(Hines imo) because even against 10 men i could not see us scoring,
& to bring on subs for the last few minutes does nt give them time to get the pace of the game.
We're looking for excuses now,what could of been blah blah blah,simple fact is we don't score,we haven't since losing Deano and Bellamy, Cole alone wont save us,as for the new buy's, i guess Diamanti will score a 20 yarder at some stage,sorry I see us on par with Portsmouth.Maybe going down might be a good thing,maybe we need a big clearout and a complete change.
Chris, Going down is definitely not the answer! Thin end of the wedge, Look at leeds, Norwich, Southampton, Charlton. I bet some of their fans thought it would be good to regroup. And there's no need to panic. The season is still young. I'm not going to say we're too good to go down, but we've been here before and got out of it. My gut says we will again 'cos there are several teams worse than us in the league this season, if nothing else! Also I'm sure we're not going broke overnight. I reckon the owners have time to find the right buyer – someone with more cash to spend than G&S.
paul we have had.
The 4 3 3 didn't work.
The 4 5 1 didn't work.
The 4 5 1 diamanti in the hole Didn't work.
I pressume and I'm hoping and my gut feeling is we will see the return to 4 4 2,I can't see Zola having any other choice,i think he will hand Franco a start,he's experience I reckon, get's the nod over Hines,what you think?
Chrischris – I was going to reply to your post with surprise that you hadn't mentioned 4-4-2 but you have replied to your own post and are back to normal.
Our shortcomings are not just about 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-3-3. Good players with the right mind set will make it work however.
how many times can you make a post about how many strikers we play up front? Its getting on for 20 odd posts on the exact same topic. Seriously, change the record
Half empty yes,but if zola goes for it against arsenal my opinion will change,but if we play silly formations trying to contain arsenal,it wont belong before they score,lets play our game, attack with 2 upfront and 2 out wide,let them worry about us. COYI!!!!!!!!!!!
Agree, trying to contain Arsenal is like herding cats. I think we have to go for it – they don't like it up 'em!
Here we go again. The answer to all our problems is in the formation. Really?
SJ
We should all know that the rules of real life are not applicable to the football pitch. Sir Bobby Robson said something along the lines of " parents will do and say things when stood on the sideline watching their kids that they wouldn't dream of normally" It brings out the worst in some people.
Being on the pitch tends to make no difference, regardless of the standard of the game.
The history of the game has many cases of players, Billy Bonds for example, who were as competitive, passionate and fiery (and sometimes violent) as anyone while on the pitch, but as soon as the game was over they were the most quietest charming people you could ever hope to meet.
The most violent act I can recall happening in football didn't even take place during a game anyway, it happened in training and involved John Hartson, how many here calling for Huth's head were silent then I wonder.
I have been an FA Coach educator for a few years now; I hold a Level 4 badge (which used to be known as UEFA 'A'), and believe me, what we see from people like Huth, who obviously hasn't quite grasped that there are cameras watching his every move, is tolerated at all levels by the FA.
Every week up and down the country players are saying to other players " do that again and I'll break your leg" which is, I believe, verbal assault. No one ever gets done for it.
Football is trying to clean its act up from the grass roots up but gets no help from the people at the top who run the Premier League, who are separate entity to the FA. Until all parties concerned work together instead of trying to score points from each other nothing that ever happens on the pitch will find itself taken to the courtroom – unless it's someone complaining about dodgy transfers and lost points and relegation.
You don't wanna give that badge to zola,by any chance,scribble 2 upfront on it from me,cheers mate.
I agree with Paul'O we are too good to go down but when we have been in this position before we have done just that. GZ will turn things around in time believe it he will however without the proper backing from the owner you cannot run a football club without investment. we just hope that either we are takenover and given the transfer kitty we need in January or CB/S give us something otherwise their investment regardless of what financial position we are in goes out the window or should i say sink like the Titanic (that was by an iceberg from Iceland wasnt it???)
Players should be accountable to the law for what they do on the pitch. Full stop. Then we might not have violent incidents during games.
I was at the game and trust me, Huth could have been sent off but it would not have affected the outcome. Our limitations against 10 men were obvious in the Fulham game and I haven't seen too much improvement since then. Stoke would have shut up shop even more and Cole would have become even more isolated and ineffectual.
The 3 match ban seems about right. It was a girly slap, albeit a cheap shot.
Seem to recall Messrs Dicks, Allen, Ruddock and Neill (plus a few others) dishing out similar stuff over the years. No worse than an over-the-top tackle that would also be chargeable as assault should Plod get involved.
If you drag them in for a punch then the doors are open for everything. Completely unwelcome in my opinion.
For a girly slap, there seems to be a fair amount of blood visble in the photos I've seen.
That slap opened up the wound Upson received in the first half after a clash of heads. He was off the field for five minutes for treatment.
Trust me, it was not a haymaker.
Fair enough, I was reliant on the Graun's clockwatch coverage and they didn't mention the first incident.
I find the whole 3 match ban thing a real slap in the face cos are the 3 matches that Huth misses going to be against sides around us in the league? They get the advantage of one of Stokes better players being banned for a game that helps them for an act that was committed against us?
This sort of thing should be a ban for the return fixture, or next 2 figures against the club on the receiving end of his act, not just 3 random games.
Will, you are right on both counts. I think banning the player against the team he assaulted is a fairer option. I think I would like to go the whole hog and insist on a replay but I doubt that would float.
Bubbleblower makes some valid points. Huth should have walked, banned and possibly be facing charges. It's a mans game, but at no point does anyone have the right to basically assault you, and that is what happened to Upson. We could do with a bit of fight ourselves at the moment but I draw the line at this! We don need to stop the going down talk though. It is unhealthy and unhelpful. I know where we are in the prem, but I for one am looking up, not down. A couple of results can turn thing around and we can start climbing. Losing games is a very easy habit when it sets in, but so is winning. You just need your first result, so why not start on Sunday against the in form Gooners. No-one expects us to get anything, so what have we got to lose? Sure, we need to score more goals, and the strikers need to find the onion bag as that is why they are there after all. I am sick of being where we are. It physically hurts, but I will be singing my head off on Sunday as this is a potential turning point that could change our season. Be positive guys and it may even rub off on the players! COYI
“No Huth Justice” 3 games is appaling for what he did, just because he admitted his guilt to the act. I’m with MattRyan on this one. However the question of whether it would have made a difference to the game is a good one but in the cold light of day, in my opinion a mute point in the sense that we will just never know. Good article, as always SJ.
This is a difficult one to solve. If all football pitch "assaults" were reported to Old Bill it would, by their sheer numbers, be a total shambles. I guess it is the responsibility of the player who was assaulted to make a complaint. There is a fine line of judgement between what can be construed as assault and what is an unfortunate injury incurred as part of the game (not saying Huth's challenge was the latter) so who would make that call? I'm not pretending to know the answer, just saying it's a difficult one.
Oddjob, we all from plenty of other examples that the law is an ass, but isn't witnessing and failing to report a crime a crime in itself?
Well, yes it is Mikef but if every dodgy challenge in every football match was reported the police would be inundated every weekend. where would that get us?
I'm not saying that crimes should go unpunished, just that there is not a simple solution to this. Add Rugby to it as well which seems to be getting closer to an authorised war than ever.
Odd job, be fair here – this was not some mistimed challenge or over zealous challenge this was a swing of the right hand which has no place whatsoever on any football pitch.
(continued due to being cut off in mid flow):
Player bans are another awkward issue. Huth will get his three match ban and the teams he misses out against will get a benefit (if he was any good!) whilst the team who was sinned against (i.e. us) won't get any recompense at all. The same with Scott Parker. Stoke had the benefit of him not playing against them although his bookings were all against other clubs. Don't really stack up, eh?
Perhaps the solution is to play 4-4-2. I'm sure that Chrischris would agree.
You said it yourself, good player's make it work,yeah well we don't have enough good player's, Parker and Green are class the rest are average.
what formation is it you favour then, chris chris?
What really wound me up yesterday was the mealy-mouthed, pissant excuse for an apology Stoke put out, essentially saying it was Upson's fault for winding up Huth by being in the way when he was trying to block off Tomkins. Yeah, really sounds like a heartfelt apology to me…
What really wound me up yesterday was the mealy-mouthed, pissant excuse for an apology Stoke put out, essentially saying it was Upson's fault for winding up Huth by being in the way when he was trying to block off Tomkins.
"…Robert reacted in frustration at being impeded by Matthew Upson for the second time in the game, stopping him from marking James Tomkins at set-pieces as instructed. Robert Huth's actions are totally out of character for a fully committed defender who has only received one red card – for two cautions – in nearly eight years of playing in the Premier League."
Yeah, really sounds like a heartfelt apology to me…
Daveip…there are times to moan about the opposition and times when we have to take the medicine. For me, it never sounds that impressive or classy to criticise after we have been beaten. I think we have to look at ourselves before we start piling in on the other team.
We may not be too hot at the moment, but I'd hate it if went down the Spuds' road of blaming everyone but ourselves.
Lofty, I'm not moaning about the opposition for the game itself – we scored fewer goals than them without them being improperly assisted by the referee, ergo, we lost fair and square.
With Huth/Upson, I don't think it would have a bearing on the game as, per your post just before mine, they'd have just parked the bus. What I _am_ getting at though is that, by not contesting the charges, they are accepting 'guilt' in the matter on Huth's behalf. Their statement, on the other hand, says "Well we're not going to fight it because he was _technically_ in the wrong, so he'd get a ban anyway, but it was really Upson's fault". That is very far from accepting guilt and offering an apology, in my book.
We all know that players and managers can accept any fine imposed (well, maybe apart from John Barnes according to today's reports), but a good hanging-out-to dry loses its effect when the player's club comes out with this tosh.
Spot on, mate. Tosh is a currency used by most clubs, including our own at
times.
Stoke would have denied, denied and denied had Huth not been caught bang to rights by the cameras. As for their mealy mouthed apology, nothing more than we expected. As I said earlier, you can't buy class…and there is little of it about in football, sadly.
Spot on, mate. Tosh is a currency used by most clubs, including our own at times.
Stoke would have denied, denied and denied had Huth not been caught bang to rights by the cameras. As for their mealy mouthed apology, nothing more than we expected. As I said earlier, you can't buy class…and there is little of it about in football, sadly.
If you cant see our problems formation your an idiot.
And your problem in repetition and punctuation.
wot u xpext i wena skool inn thee east end
I think the deduction of 3 points would be a better deterant and then the clubs may control this type of player or get them out of the game the team should be penalised and the result awarded to the oposition.
very fine line as to what can be dealt with by footballs governing bodies and what plod can do. whilst in no way defending huths actions, it has to be dealt with by the fa and not the police. that road opens a possible floodgate into our game. it could be argued that juniors goal celebration against millwall was behaviour likely to cause a breach of peace. where would it end? anyone remember frankie mac having a court appearence along with butcher, woods and roberts after some handbags during a celtic – rangers derby, incitement to riot i believe the scottish police were going for
What a load of pompous twaddle. Huth has been caught and punished, end of. Why are people on here wetting their knickers over it?
Charm personified!
doh – perhaps because by failing to spot the infringement during the game, WHU gain precisely nothing from the retrospective action.
Whatever is said about our performance overall and our failure to break down a 10 man Fulham the previous week, at the time the Huth man raised his hand we were on top of the game and would have stood every chance of going on to win had he been spotted and punished. That's why we are dampening our undregarments Hammersfan. Pointless, yes. Theraputic, maybe.
Chief/Hammersfan…Agree entirely. Let football's authorities deal with football matters.
Would those calling for a Plod involvement be happy for the boys in blue to bring charges against the club for incidents inside the ground during the Millwall match?
As Chief points out, Zavon Hines could well have had his collar felt for goading the Millwall fans. Once we invite police involvement into the game, there will be no stopping it.
Lofty the great Irish writer Brendan Behan once said "I have never seen a situation so dismal that if could not be made worse by the arrival of a policeman" and I agree completely!
Huth has been punished to the extent that the law allows. Any fine would have to come from his club but I never expected Pulis to do anything about it.
I agree that there is no point saying we should have had a penalty or he should have been sent off, we didnt and he wasnt so move on.
It was a gutless act though by Huth.
My biggest concern was that it should have sparked the team into life to get back in to the game but it didnt. The lack of team spirit is very worrying.
I think you, and others, have touched on this before CH, but we really do seem to lack 'a voice' out on the pitch. If only we had someone in the mould of Billy Bonds out on the pitch we may see more gutsy performances, unfortunately there is no one of this calibre currently in the squad. Could Valon eventually fill this role?
Shropshire at this point I would settle for a player who could at least kick an opponent with conviction!
True, the lack of reaction from the other players to what happened to Upson was shocking. Rugby may be a different game but if that happened in any match you would have had the victims entire team would have bailing in.
It means one of two things either the players dont have passion as you say Shropshire or Upson isnt a popular figure among the squad.
Well said Jon, its about time responsible and adult posters started standing up to the minority who are ruining this site with their nonsense chat and digs at the blog posts and their fellow posters!
It's getting beyond a joke now.
I can't even dignify that with a response!
You really do talk some crap!
Please don't reply to my posts, you just clog up my inbox!
All done & dusted Huth has a 3match ban as was expected
Well at least we can now move forward and look to Sundays match against the gunners let us hope that they will be firing a few blanks and we have a full cannon ready to blow them to smithereens
Definition of a football pitch:- "An area where one can seriously assault another with immunity from prosecution. " What if the next time it happens the consequences are more serious, for without doubt without police intervention it will happen again – fines and bans mean nothing to these guys. I would be interested to know why the police have decided not to become involved or is indeed my definition correct. The incident was neither a deliberate foul nor a ' fair' fight but a cowardly assault clearly occassioning actual bodily harm.